*Trigger Warning*
A friend tagged me in a post on a private Christian page showing a video in which a student asks Ravi Zacharias a question: “does suicide send you directly to hell?” I am unsure why my friend tagged me; I assume he thought I would want to discuss Mr. Zacharias’ response. I watched the video and was saddened and distressed by Ravi’s response. This was not the first time a religious leader shared an uneducated and ignorant viewpoint, and I am sure it won’t be the last. Full disclosure: I am tired of people who say they follow a loving God and then spew their own bias as his. Ravi Zacharias answers the question, and during his answer he uses terms like murder and states he is not one to judge; but over the next several minutes he does exactly that! He looks at the audience and responds:
I would not want to meet the Lord after I have taken my life. The reason is in Genesis 9:6 murder is called the ultimate attack upon image of God, that is what murder is, you have violated the image of God. So if I violate the image of God in someone else, or in myself, it is the ultimate act of lack of faith and without faith it is impossible to please God. So I would say I would not want to meet him on those terms.
I am deeply disturbed by his use of the word murder. That word in itself carries deeply negative connotations (as it should), but to use murder when discussing suicide is alarming and ignorant. He proceeds to share a past experience about his struggle with depression. At one point, he tried to die by suicide (I do not use the word commit, more on that later). He feels deep shame for trying to take his life and tells the audience that he struggles to even talk about that time in his life. Mr. Zacharias believes that the greatest gift God has given us is life and we dishonor him by trying to end it, but a major crux of the issue is that he doesn’t mention mental illness, not even once. I don’t understand how he can ignore that considering he has felt that hopelessness.
Why is it important to talk about mental illness with relation to the original question? Over 90% of people who die by suicide have an underlying mental illness. We have to try to understand some of what people are going through if we want to try and help them.
I lost my son to suicide in January of 2016. He was only 15. We tried desperately to get him help. We went to naturopaths, changing his diet, medical doctors, medication, no medication, you name it. He was hospitalized twice in two months for suicidal ideation yet both times they only kept him for 5 days. Insurance wouldn’t cover any additional hospital time. I was a single mother at the time and tried to pay for it myself, but even putting my home up for sale would not have given me the needed funds to keep him in the hospital. I know many other parents that are in the same position. This is a huge issue in the mental health community. In many instances insurance will not cover treatment, or they will only cover a portion of the treatment so people lack basic services. Suicide is on the rise yet mental health receives very little funding. In fact, I recently learned that Oklahoma’s mental health budget is being slashed by over 70 million dollars! Suicide is now the second leading cause of death for people aged 10 to 24. We have even lost kids as young as eight years old to suicide. This is a heartbreaking problem and it has nothing to do with lack of faith. My son was an amazing kid and a strong believer. He was very involved in our church and had been baptized two years before, loved people and people loved him. He always tried to make people around him feel better and he always stood up for kids at school that couldn’t stand up for themselves. He was very popular at his high school, but he had dealt with the trauma of bullying in elementary school and he didn’t want anyone else to have to go through that.
Stigma is a major issue leading to unsought care and potential death. In the video Ravi addresses feeling shame about his suicide attempt. People should not feel shame for being depressed or having a mental illness, yet they do. Responses like Ravi Zacharias’ feed that stigma. Many feel if they just have enough faith or if they just trust God enough it will go away. That is not always the case. The brain is sick and until we start treating it like an illness people are still going to feel shame about mental health issues. There is no shame in seeking help. I repeat, there is no shame in seeking help and there is no shame in being sick. Someone who has cancer goes and sees the doctor, does the church tell them that they are wrong for going to see a doctor? Most churches do not, so why should it be any different for those that struggle with depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, Etc.?
I wrote this article a while ago about depression and the church.
Here is another I wrote about stigma.
I have spoken with so many people that don’t feel comfortable at church because they feel judged as a result of their mental illness. God never intended for us to live with disease and illness, but we deal with it in our daily lives because of the fall. It breaks my heart when people feel they need to separate from the church because of judgement. We should be reaching out and trying to understand their perspective so we can help them both physically and spiritually.
Earlier in the article I wrote about not using the term committed suicide. Committed is a term used in crime, such as someone committed murder. I and others in the community say died by suicide over committed. When one dies from suicide due to mental illness or dire circumstances they do not have control over their actions. They do not want to die, they have brain sickness and can’t make a rational decision.
Here is my initial response to the post:
(Friend’s name) I appreciate that he states that he is not one to judge, but throughout the entire video he is doing just that. I don’t see how you can state someone is going to hell because they have a disease. We cannot attribute rational thought to somebody who’s irrational or to an irrational decision/action. The brain is sick. Those that struggle with mental illness don’t want to die, their disease has tricked them into believing that all hope is lost. How do you make a sound decision, see hope, or everything that is good in your life when the thing that makes you, you, is not functioning correctly? Their sick brain makes them believe there is no other option. Would God send someone to hell who dies of breast cancer? What about Alzheimer’s? Their brain becomes sick and they completely lose themselves; would God send them to hell? Of course not! God is loving and judges us fairly. Is it fair to send someone to hell who is sick? Again, we cannot rationalize a sick brain that is irrational. Try to understand mental illness and those that struggle from it and you might see things differently. I would also add this, if your God would send someone to hell who is ill, then he is not the God I follow.
Romans 8:38-39
“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation (this would include suicide), will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” In short, nothing shall separate us from the love of God in Jesus Christ – regardless of the manner in which we meet Him face to face.
To see Ravi Zacharias video, click here
It’s no clear answer to will suicide will send one to hell.
There is. It is in God’s character. Especially if you believe God to be loving and just. If you believe God would not send someone to hell for having cancer or Alzheimers, how can you say God would for depression or other forms of mental illness?
Did you read the article? 🙂 There are several points about this topic in the article I posted.
My heart breaks for you . Mental illness is a very tough issue to even know for sure they understand and know God due to their mental incapacity.
I have no answer about their whereabouts since Jesus said Eternal life is :
Knowing God and Jesus whom He sent.”
The evidence is we are new creatures in Christ transformed anew.
I honestly do not know if they are capable of knowing them on a mature deep level.
Their incapablity makes me think God sends them to heaven like the little children .
I do not think Ravi believes in hell which means he does not believe in God’s words which makes me doubt if he is a Christian
Thank you Deb. I appreciate your caring comments. They mean a lot.
I often refer back to Romans 8:38-39 (NIV)
38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. This scripture tells us that nothing can separate us from Christ’s love.
I really like your comment that they are incapable of knowing. My son loved God, he was ill and was unable to make a rational decision. I have pondered this often and I started to think of Alzheimer’s; we know individuals with Alzheimer’s are unable to think clearly because their brains are sick. The person that they are is disappearing under the disease, and I know that God will not send someone to help with Alzheimer’s. God is a loving God and he knows that we are not at fault for that kind of illness. Mental illness affects the brain as well, and I don’t know why people are so quick to assume that God will send someone to hell if they have a mental illness, but they would never say the same for a person with any kind of other brain illness. Does that make sense? I hope I articulated that well. I am appreciative of your response and your compassion. Thank you.
Hi Denise,
I am so sorry to learn that your son has taken his own life and I can not know how it feels because I did not go through this although I lost my dear cousin to suicide many years ago. May God give you strength and faith till the end.
I have noticed you mentioned Romans 8:38-39. There is also another verse that should be taken together with this one . It is Romans 3:12-13
“See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.” (NIV)
Looking at both verses I understand that nothing from the outside can separate us from the love of God. It is from the inside us that can separate us from the love of God, “a sinful, unbelieving heart”. So the question is: “Is suicide a sin?”
I believe the pain of loosing your son can not be described in words. I am a father of four children and can not even fathom what would be like loosing one of them. But no matter what happens to me or you, God’s words remain the same and should be trusted. Lessons should be learned looking in the Bible. Whilst I appreciate the advances of science and medicine today, I know for a fact that many medicines nowadays treat the symptoms not the sickness. Anti-depressants, for example, affect the brain and make one loose his/her mind. They do not treat depression but lead to suicide.
Ravi Zacharia’s response is based on Bible and Bible only. He does not comprehensively deal with the issue of suicide in a few minutes. I am not saying that your son will go to hell or heaven. It is not us sending him either way. It is God who will judge. But I am reminded that I should teach my children that violating the image of God is a sin with catastrophic consequences. I should also teach my children that a sinful and unbelieving heart separates from God. We were given the choice of freedom of will but we were not given the choice to choose when we were born or when we will die. And we were not given the choice to separate the entanglements that come with our choices.
I hope you will not get upset because of my message. It has never been my intention. If I could , I would bring your son back to life. But I can not. What I can is to try and remain faithful to the Bible teachings and pray that God gives us both faith till the end of our days!
Hi Daniel,
My name is Larry Schatt and I asked Denise if I could answer for her (she has been under the weather). I appreciate your comments and your heart for Jesus. I am also sorry for the loss of your cousin and grateful for your compassion for Denise.
Here is my take on this topic; We all have sin in our lives, Ro 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. I think most people will pass from this life with unconfessed sin, either sin they have tried to hide from God, or sin where they have not yet asked God for forgiveness (maybe recent sin). The only unforgivable sin is explained in Mt 12:31, “And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.” Fourth, I don’t believe most people who take their life are in their right minds. I don’t think God will punish them for their illness and pain – and it very well may be that they have asked God for forgiveness .
Denise’s son loved Jesus. He had accepted him as his Lord and Savior and lived his life for Him and for others (I know – I baptized him). We need to remember that God is love (1Jn 4:8).
There is a big difference in deliberately sinning and not asking for forgiveness and being so sick you don’t see any other way out. I know that Denise’s son is in Heaven with Jesus.
I applaud you for teaching your children Scripture, but don’t forget love, compassion and grace. Without these, Scripture is pretty hollow.
God Bless,
Larry Schatt (Jakes’s very proud Grandfather)
I apologize. My 2-nd Scripture reference is not Romans 3:12-13 but rather Hebrews 3:12-13
Hi Larry,
Thank you for your reply. I have a 14 years old daughter myself and understand your response from that perspective. Never get in between a father and her daughter unless you are going to be the son-in-law! 🙂
I would go to the things that we know for sure. The original word used for suicide is self-killing. “Suicide” was a term first devised and used by Sir Thomas Browne and first published in his book Religio Medici in 1643. Theologically we go to the Bible. The problem with suicide is that it is the ultimate attack on “the image of God” (Genesis 9:6). It is the ultimate lack of faith. And as Ravi Zacharias points out, “I would not want to meet God on those terms”. There is no born again person in the Bible that committed suicide. Many were killed in gruesome fashion as martyrs but they lived full of hope till they passed away. In the old Testament, Jonah said “Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live!”(Jonah 4:3). Elijah said “It is enough! Now, Lord, take my life, for I am no better than my fathers!”(1 Kings 19:4). They both asked God to take their lives but suicide was out of question.
I agree that a person who loves God would never take his/her own life , let alone other lives. There is hope in HIM. There is PURPOSE in the life of every child of God. There is MEANING in life although sometimes we might not understand it. There is LIFE in HIM. Jesus said in John 10:10 “…I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full”.
My wife’s sister lost her husband 6 years ago. He was 33 years old and they had a 6 months old boy at that time who is 6 now. Melanoma cancer. Horrible pain. Sleepless nights. Tough moments. 7 months of heavy suffering and he was gone. Good and important thing is that in the UK , the NHS is free for everyone living in the UK (few exceptions apply). Yesterday she told me that the only thing that kept her living was having faith in God. That He knows what He is doing! But she never considered suicide. She is raising her child and takes her life one step at a time.
It is true that no person in their right mind, lead by The Holy Spirit, would take their own life. The mind of somebody who commits suicide is either controlled or influenced by an evil spirit. The Holy Spirit would never lead us to commit suicide! We would have to ask ourselves: where did the responsibility of that person cease? (if it ever happened!) There is no “one glove fits all” answer to this question. Every case has its own merits and I am sure God will consider that. An important factor to be considered is RESPONSABILITY.
E.G.
1.If a gun was involved in the suicide, I would ask myself as a parent: who is responsible for providing that gun in a house with a child who is not mature enough yet and could abuse its purpose (to protect, if that WAS truly its initial purpose)?
2. If bullying at school was involved, why did not the child find comfort in the family love?
3. If computer games/movies/internet were likely to be a culprit (and I find these culprits very sneaky and sometimes overlooked by us, parents), why did we allow this to happen?
4. If the given medicine is the culprit, why do we jump to listen to the so called “experts” in a health and medicine industry driven by profit? They have the audacity to even write on side effects: “suicidal feelings” . By no means I disrespect doctors and experts. I myself needed doctors sometimes (rarely though). The science has dramatically advanced in the 20-th century. It is the 21-st century where we put profits before humanity. It is the 21-st century where I find it hard to believe the “experts” trained by an industry that does not work in the interest of the ill. It works in the interest of its shareholders!
There are many other root causes but these ones were the ones that came to my mind.
Responsibility was given to us next to freedom of choice. As individuals and parents, I pray that we take our responsibilities SERIOUSLY. I do not want say, by any means, that you or Denise neglected responsibility.
But it is with sadness when I say that the christian church in the west (this includes western Europe and UK where we live) is more and more resembling the world. Our churches started to look like fun theatres/disco rings/movie cinemas rather than holy temples. We should be totally different to the world! It is our self-sufficiency, our comfort, our pleasures that not only dent the testimony of the church of Jesus Christ, they decimate it!
I can see you love both Denise and Jake from your take on this matter. I would not want to discuss Jake’s specific situation as I did not know him nor do I know the circumstances of his death. However, saying that he is Heaven with Jesus is more than the Bible says. He is asleep, resting at the moment (John 14:1-3, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16, Acts 2:34,29). There are few people who had the privilege to come back to life from the other side (Mathew 27:51-53 is amongst them) . There are no Bible written testimonies from these people as to their whereabouts or state during their deaths.
I hope that when the resurrection will come, the circumstances of Jakes’s passing away will allow God granting him eternal life with Jesus!
And I further hope that every christian parent will teach his children love, compassion, grace, responsibility and truth! Without TRUTH, the others are wasted. With regards to Salvation, GRACE is enough. We just have to accept it!
I pray the christian church will wake up, be vigilant and live for its purpose: to glorify God!
May God bless you all!
You can’t kill your self because the body is already dead, the image of GOD is the spirit not the body. GOD breathed into man, he gave the body life because its made from dust. Those who suicide only separate the body from spirit. Death is separation from body & spirit.
This is not hard to understand this. Ravi Zacharias is talking rubbish especially now its known he had been committing adultery for some time, he’s just another hypocrite
Thank you Wayne, very well stated. I deeply appreciate it and you. God bless.
All sin is some form of mental illness/human imperfection which is considered sinful, wicked or ungodly according to the Bible scriptures. This includes fleshly vices such as pride, anger, hate, murder: greed, suicide, fornication, adultery, lust, drunkardness, stealing, revelry, etc…According to Psalms 1, no sinner will stand in the assembly of the righteous (in other words not admitted to belong with righteous spirits in heaven) and the way of the wicked shall perish (in other words die continuously in hell and not receive the gift of eternal life). This message is somewhat repeated in the New Testament in 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and in other verses. So if anyone believes that killing oneself which is a sin will merit eternal life obviously hasn’t read enough scripture or doesn’t understand the teachings of Jesus Christ nor has memorized and obeyed the 10 commandments. One has to resist doing evil deeds and follow 10 commandments, love all persons including self, be forgiven of sins by God and Jesus, be baptized in church, partake of blood and body of Jesus and be in state of holy grace, have his/her name in book of life, do good works, before death to “guarantee” eternal life after judgement. On the other hand, ending of one’s life is a violation of the commandment “Thou shall not murder” in Exodus 20 and thus suicide is considered an evil deed. Suicide is what Satan would want someone to do. So if someone obeys Satan, that’s more likely where that person will go, with Satan in hell. Yes it is sad that some think that suicide is a cure for their mental anxiety; but it’s not. God and his son Jesus can heal us or lead us to healing. Those interested in suicide may have a demon in them or maybe listening to demon persuasions. Also they should see doctor to do a brain scan or check deficiency of vitamins. Killing oneself doesn’t not please the Lord; but rather pleases Satan in hell. Please persuade others to not commit suicide by loving, consoling, educating moral values or praying for them. It’s a very bad bad thing to do. It contradicts the teachings of the Bible. You will not find the act of suicide as acceptable in the Bible. Try to find it. It’s considered another form of murder; murder of self. Jesus never taught justification of any form of murder; remember that he didn’t retaliate when he was beaten, insulted and murdered on the cross. He obeyed God.. Therefore like Christ we will not murder anyone but if we have to be murdered by another person so be it for the sake of eternal life. Do what Jesus has done. Imitate him. He is your Lord; not me.
Psalms1: 1Blessed is the man
who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked,
or set foot on the path of sinners,
or sit in the seat of mockers.
2But his delight is in the Law of the LORD,
and on His law he meditates day and night.
3He is like a tree planted by streams of water,
yielding its fruit in season,
whose leaf does not wither,
and who prospers in all he does.
4Not so the wicked!
For they are like chaff driven off by the wind.
5Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
6For the LORD guards the path of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked will perish.
You are wrong, dead wrong and I know my God would never judge someone who is sick. If you had dealt with mental illness or Alzheimer’s you would understand. I laid out my thoughts in the article and I won’t spend too much time here, as there see people hurting in this world that need help and God’s love. I will pray God enlightens you and pray you never have to deal with an illness of the brain.
I would like to thank all of you for your words of wisdom … I’ve always lived a hard struggling life , but today i felt like giving up on this life . I’m thankful i came across this article , reading all of this has given me strength ..
This life is very , very hard for me , I don’t really see much reason or purpose for me to live this life any more , but I’ll keep my faith strong and take every day by day . I pray things get better for me .. , Thank you
Thank you for those kind words Olivia. There is purpose for you and deep love with God, but I know that can feel very far away. Please know I will be praying for you and your family. You are loved.
I read through all your comments. I to enjoy listening to Ravi. I wish this was a group and not a public platform because of the impact it could make with someone battling depression. The Bible is our source and there are somethings that are obviously a mystery. Judges 16:30
30 And Samson said, “Let me die with the Philistines.” Then he bowed with all his strength, and the house fell upon the lords and upon all the people who were in it. So the dead whom he killed at his death were more than those whom he had killed during his life.
You can say Samson sacrificed his life but the obvious is true, he took his own life. Jesus Christ sacrificed his life! let’s not get the two confused. Noone choses to have a illness much like cancer. So why would anyone be held at the same standard as a person that doesn’t have a mental illness. Shame on you Daniel for telling Denise her child was moved by a evil spirit. It’s obvious that the holy spirit would not lead her son to commit suicide. There is not one person on this platform that is qualified to judge. Their is only one God and if sin is sin show me the verse were Moses ask God for forgiveness for killing the soilder.
If a man received Jesus Christ in his life and battled depression and one day try to end his life,but at the last moment he truly changed his heart and ask God for forgiveness but it was to late would he go to hell? The truth is it’s impossible for anyone to answer that question because you would have to be that man. In the same way don’t speak for God with your opinion.
Very well said A.Alvarez. Thank you so much for those kind words. I had never even considered what Sampson did. I appreciate perspective. Thank you again so much.
I believe in the kind and loving God.
As do I. Thank you so much Joe. God bless.
Denise
Depression Anxiety OCD can torment the mind to the point of despair.
Even if a person is truly a believer and has accepted Jesus, still, the mind
can produce such a sadness, such despondency. Often certain medications
can contribute to this. For myself I know all too well this truth. I am an elderly
woman who is taking care of my disabled husband for the past year and a half
and we are both believers who have accepted Jesus. I have Depression currently.
I often have suicidal thoughts that remain passive for now and I hope they don’t
get worse in the long run. I feel so deeply sorry for those who have taken their
own lives. My heart goes out to all of you who are in great suffering.
Hi Georgie, I am so sorry you are dealing with all of this. It must be very difficult. I will be in prayer that the depression is lifted and does not get worse. The brain is an organ and can become ill, I think it is important that Christians understand that.
God bless,
Denise
Well said! I am outraged by reading the response of Ravi and other pastors or priests. Suicide does not always lead to hell. Many people are forced to commit suicide by their family and friends. And there are very young people who have committed suicide. Young people do not go to hell.
Very well said Bob the builder. I appreciate that a great deal.
With gratitude,
Denise
Hi All
I also want to commit suicide, which leads me to this topic.
For me it’s “The more I know Jesus, the more I want to commit suicide.
It makes me aware off how things are suppose te be, what being humble, respectful. joyfully, loyalty and being a light means.
As long as I can be that it’s great. It’s a beautiful thing to become that. And the Bible describes how it should be.
The problem: we can’t become that. Why? We live in a broken world.
Example:
The body is holy and a temple, but because off the broken world, its aging. Which is already not helping in self esteem, future perspective not being bitter ect.
Depression can also mean being sensitive to a broken world. You don’t want your inner world versus outside world being not in line. It is not correct!
Especially when you know how it’s supposed to be.
You want to go there in the light, be the light. In a perfect situation we are indeed happy all the time (in heaven). We are longing to that! We want to become what we are supposed to be! FREE.
We should be able to forever dance, being young, being happy, free all off it.
We are captivated in the flesh. In the end that can influence our capacity to follow Christ or truly be free.
How can I be truly the same Christ like person?
When I feel insecure about my looks, no I will age and lose things, not feeling the same anymore ect.
I can’t fake to be this person when I’m not feeling like that. From inside I feel but the broken world can damage that.
So we hold on to Christ deep inside us and still know that’s the truth and just all.
But sometimes the pain can become to much. Our inner knowing and reality can be 2 different story’s.
We can’t bring peace in those 2 different worlds. It can become impossible to truly carry out your vision.
I think Christ wants us to be free. He wants to give us a future/life. But the real life is in heaven.
We are still here to save souls.
Despite the broken world he is our only hope and we have to share love.
Because that’s the only way to deal with the broken world. It needs love.
But people who commit suicide are to much hurt and they actually want to go to the light.
They don’t choose violence as in murder. They choose being free from torment and hoping for light.
But the bible is to unclear where they will end up.
Let’s just really pray and hope they are forever in his glory
And that is for a lot off examples.
I guess we all deep down really know how it is to be free, loving, creating, helpfull ect. We long so much to this reality.
Ps. Excuse me for my bad English I’m from the Netherlands.
Thank you Eva, I agree that Jesus wants us to be free of sin, that is why he paid the ultimate price for our sins. I don’t believe for one minute that God would send someone who is sick and can’t think clearly to hell, that would go against a loving God. But you already know that from reading the article. 🙂
I am sorry you are struggling. I know the pain of this world is very real. God knows our pain and you are absolutely correct that he doesn’t want this for us. This world can be very difficult, but there is also beauty everywhere. I live in Appalachia now and I marvel at God’s artistry that is all around me.
I will be in prayer for you and that you are able to feel the love and light of God when you are in that dark place. Your english was excellent. God bless.